(no subject)
Jun. 25th, 2012 03:46 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
potato_headFrankly, incredibly surprised I just passed that test, since I completely checked out for about ten minutes after having to answer the questions on autism.
I very much want to write this professor an email regarding all of this, but the idea of actually doing so puts my stress levels through the roof and I know she's unlikely to respond in any sort of positive way, because I just don't have the energy to do this the most effective way and she seems like the sort of person who sticks to her convictions. So instead...I will rant here. HERE YOU GUYS GO, HAVE MY UPSET FEELS 6 n 9
Okay, first of all? What kind of psych professor doesn't fucking know what theory of mind is?
Her definition of 'theory of mind' was the understanding that other people have minds, vs being inanimate objects. Her assertion was that allistic people possess theory of mind from infancy, and autistic people 'on the whole' do not, and do not know the difference between another person and an inanimate object.
This is not true. This is not a characteristic of autistic people on any 'functioning level' (I'm not going to go into what bullshit those are...right now...maybe in a minute...maybe not). FIRST OF ALL, theory of mind is the ability to distinguish other peoples' thoughts and desires FROM ONE'S OWN. Not the ability to recognize other people as thinking, feeling people. Generally, a person with very little theory of mind will assume that other people are perceiving and experiencing the same thing they are. This can be demonstrated, and has been, repeatedly, because human beings are not born with fully functioning theory of mind. It develops gradually as children age. As such, there are different grades of theory of mind, and it is indeed said that autistic people may have some deficits in this area; I'm not going to speak to that, because I have never seen any evidence of it myself, but I've never studied it, either. However, I am going to say that frankly I've seen allistic people who struggled much more with theory of mind than any autistic person I've ever known. Perhaps this is simply because they're unlikely to be constantly told that they must have trouble understanding people and should work hard to try and empathize.
Now, regardless of whether or not autism is associated with deficits RE: theory of mind, it is most definitely not a case of autistic people not recognizing other people as people. She stated that this was why autistic people are generally 'more comfortable with objects' because we must see humans as 'erratic and unpredictable' (and apparently the fact that many autistic people, especially those diagnosed as non-functioning, are extremely comfortable with animals, has completely escaped her); this is also apparently why we have trouble meeting peoples' eyes.
No, no, and bullshit. First, to address the eye thing; many autistic people do, indeed, have trouble looking people in the eye. I am one of them. This isn't actually a symptom of autism; this is a symptom of sensory processing disorder (wikipedia article for the curious), a disorder that is almost always (but not 100%) comorbid with autism. It can also be comorbid with other neuroatypical situations, like schizophrenia - as well as ones that aren't generally classified as a disorder, such as synesthesia and unusually high intelligence - and also can be present on its own, in an otherwise neurotypical person. SPD is also responsible for issues with textures, noises, and other stimuli that autistic people often experience. It has nothing to do with the person's perception of people or understanding of their personhood. It is a situation in which looking another human in the eye is literally painful.
The idea that autistic people might avoid social situations or be confused or alarmed by allistic behavior because they want/expect people to behave like inanimate objects is patently untrue. To start with, autistic people are often much more easily able to predict and understand the behavior of other autistic people. Is it because autistic people behave like inanimate objects? (I really don't want to hear the professor's answer to that one.) Do introverted allistic people isolate themselves because they can't tell the difference between an inanimate object and a person?
Frankly, considering that most people I've heard talk like this tend to treat 'low-functioning' autistic people like inanimate objects themselves, I have to wonder if this is a theory of mind failure on the part of the professor...
ETA
Also my ears are acting up. Why is everything terrible
I very much want to write this professor an email regarding all of this, but the idea of actually doing so puts my stress levels through the roof and I know she's unlikely to respond in any sort of positive way, because I just don't have the energy to do this the most effective way and she seems like the sort of person who sticks to her convictions. So instead...I will rant here. HERE YOU GUYS GO, HAVE MY UPSET FEELS 6 n 9
Okay, first of all? What kind of psych professor doesn't fucking know what theory of mind is?
Her definition of 'theory of mind' was the understanding that other people have minds, vs being inanimate objects. Her assertion was that allistic people possess theory of mind from infancy, and autistic people 'on the whole' do not, and do not know the difference between another person and an inanimate object.
This is not true. This is not a characteristic of autistic people on any 'functioning level' (I'm not going to go into what bullshit those are...right now...maybe in a minute...maybe not). FIRST OF ALL, theory of mind is the ability to distinguish other peoples' thoughts and desires FROM ONE'S OWN. Not the ability to recognize other people as thinking, feeling people. Generally, a person with very little theory of mind will assume that other people are perceiving and experiencing the same thing they are. This can be demonstrated, and has been, repeatedly, because human beings are not born with fully functioning theory of mind. It develops gradually as children age. As such, there are different grades of theory of mind, and it is indeed said that autistic people may have some deficits in this area; I'm not going to speak to that, because I have never seen any evidence of it myself, but I've never studied it, either. However, I am going to say that frankly I've seen allistic people who struggled much more with theory of mind than any autistic person I've ever known. Perhaps this is simply because they're unlikely to be constantly told that they must have trouble understanding people and should work hard to try and empathize.
Now, regardless of whether or not autism is associated with deficits RE: theory of mind, it is most definitely not a case of autistic people not recognizing other people as people. She stated that this was why autistic people are generally 'more comfortable with objects' because we must see humans as 'erratic and unpredictable' (and apparently the fact that many autistic people, especially those diagnosed as non-functioning, are extremely comfortable with animals, has completely escaped her); this is also apparently why we have trouble meeting peoples' eyes.
No, no, and bullshit. First, to address the eye thing; many autistic people do, indeed, have trouble looking people in the eye. I am one of them. This isn't actually a symptom of autism; this is a symptom of sensory processing disorder (wikipedia article for the curious), a disorder that is almost always (but not 100%) comorbid with autism. It can also be comorbid with other neuroatypical situations, like schizophrenia - as well as ones that aren't generally classified as a disorder, such as synesthesia and unusually high intelligence - and also can be present on its own, in an otherwise neurotypical person. SPD is also responsible for issues with textures, noises, and other stimuli that autistic people often experience. It has nothing to do with the person's perception of people or understanding of their personhood. It is a situation in which looking another human in the eye is literally painful.
The idea that autistic people might avoid social situations or be confused or alarmed by allistic behavior because they want/expect people to behave like inanimate objects is patently untrue. To start with, autistic people are often much more easily able to predict and understand the behavior of other autistic people. Is it because autistic people behave like inanimate objects? (I really don't want to hear the professor's answer to that one.) Do introverted allistic people isolate themselves because they can't tell the difference between an inanimate object and a person?
Frankly, considering that most people I've heard talk like this tend to treat 'low-functioning' autistic people like inanimate objects themselves, I have to wonder if this is a theory of mind failure on the part of the professor...
ETA
Also my ears are acting up. Why is everything terrible
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no subject
Date: 2012-06-25 02:38 pm (UTC)If she probably wouldn't respond positively, leave it alone for ages and send her an email just when you can stop taking her classes? or something? or not at all. Whatever you're comfortable with, really.
Hugs. :(
no subject
Date: 2012-06-25 04:09 pm (UTC)leave it alone for ages and send her an email just when you can stop taking her classes?
I was thinking of doing that...since the class ends next week...but I'm afraid I'll accidentally end up signing up for a class with her again. Not that she's likely to recognize me since this was a web-only class, but I'll probably end up stressing over it all semester anyways. And if I leave it until I graduate at the end of next year...I'll probably have forgotten TBH P:
no subject
Date: 2012-06-25 04:18 pm (UTC)A video demonstrating children before development of theory of mind, vs after:
This is just the most basic level...it generally still takes kids awhile to begin to understand that other people have had entirely different life experiences than they have and may experience the same thing (say, someone shouting at them) and feel entirely different about it than they do due to prior experiences; that other people may have a different day-to-day life than they do; etc. This is what I would label advanced theory of mind and its development isn't really encouraged much at all by western culture. Theory of mind, like many aspects of social life, has to be learned.
no subject
Date: 2012-06-25 03:58 pm (UTC)I'm sorry you had to deal with this.
I don't know if it's worth bringing up to her, because I'm not sure she'll be willing to change her mind or even consider what you're saying. I suppose you could contact the dean and at least express that you're concerned about the misinformation (and dehumanizing misinformation, at that) that's being given, but base what you do on what you want to deal with. If you'd rather be done with the whole thing, no one can fault you for that.
no subject
Date: 2012-06-25 04:14 pm (UTC)The official noticeboards were also covered in Autism $peaks puzzle pieces, etc. this spring. I tore down a few of them, then realized they were EVERYWHERE and seemed to be multiplying and just kind of gave up. IDFK. I just want to ignore all of it, but at the same time it's really scary to me that all of these psych students are learning this shit.
no subject
Date: 2012-06-25 10:40 pm (UTC)because there is nothing as dumb as a psych student & they will make up things on top of what they learned in these classes, and what they learned was really really terrible hateful shit. it's like what psychology is lol science what science you have no science you fucking idiots.
now i am hearing my comment in jeff goldblum's voice im going to bed
no subject
Date: 2012-06-26 02:21 am (UTC)I have found this to be depressingly true. althou business students IME are even worse
All the sensible people r in economics apparently
no subject
Date: 2012-06-26 08:58 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-06-28 02:42 am (UTC)This prof describes herself as a 'psychotherapist' which set off alarm bells in my head immediately lol. Last prof I had a problem with also practiced psychoanalysis. TBH I can't trust anything a prof says after I find out they think Jung is in any way applicable to modern therapy. PLEASE JOIN US IN THE 21st CENTURY.
Scary from an untrained lay person is coldly terror inducing from a purported expert.
Date: 2012-06-28 09:18 pm (UTC)Basically- it's ascribing to AS an element which would be more indicative of a Sociopath. And more tellingly perhaps as a projection of a Sociopath who somehow ended up as a Prof?
The deconstruction of Psycho Therapist is scary enough that I won't lightly go the next step along that line as it's triggery even to me.
Frankly looking at the comment about the situation warranting official notification- Yes- the instructor's phrasing does appear to be beyond mere poor judgement. An instructor is supposed to set an example. This instructor is setting an example of how NOT to be.
Re: Scary from an untrained lay person is coldly terror inducing from a purported expert.
Date: 2012-06-29 12:14 am (UTC)Sociopaths are generally characterized, among many other traits, by the extreme ease with which they move through social situations...as well as frequent sadistic impulses, both of which require an understanding of the difference between a human and an object.
I've found in general that there are two kinds of psych instructors...the kind that are well-educated on their subjects, and the kind that prefer making shit up as opposed to research, and then lecture it as if it were the truth.
I'm considering contacting the head of the psych department around the time I graduate with my concerns...the main problem is how much stress confrontation like this causes for me, but I think it would be more likely to get results than going to this professor directly (or the one that advocated electroshock 'therapy' for autistic people).